Dancing Beyond Age: conversation with Sarah Pettit

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Tango Banter. Today is number 80. The Tango Banter is a podcast dedicated to exploring all of the nuances and layers of connecting with other people through the lens of this dance, social tango. And if you're new to my podcast and would like to support its growth, please do so by subscribing and sharing it with your friends.

If this banter wets your appetite for more conversation, please consider joining my private Facebook group where I do live banters every Friday.

This month is special. I am celebrating to this month is special. I'm celebrating a two year anniversary of starting my chicas del tango weekly practica. It's been going strong for two years. And my guest today is one of my original students who has been one of the most driven dancers in my little group since beginning to lead.

Sarah Pettit discovered a new dimension in her dance and it has had a surprising impact on her life, leading to worldwide travel and unexpected friendships with people she least expected. In this episode we chat about her humble beginnings in tango, when even following was a huge challenge and dancing socially didn't even make sense. She just went to classes.

Sarah walks us through her thought process as she grew as a dancer and the strategies that she developed to maximize her chances at the Malanga as a woman in her 60s. She specifically points to the idea of reciprocity as a crucial element in her philosophy as a dancer. I left our banter feeling, I left our banter feeling inspired.

And I hope you get to feel some of that inspiration too. As well as a few good laughs. I left our banter feeling inspired and I hope you get to feel some of that inspiration too, as well as have a few good chuckles. So here we go everyone. Enjoy. Sarah Pettit.

… So you were saying that you just came back from yet another trip, which I feel like every time I talk to you, you're coming back from another trip. So what was this trip like? So this trip, I went up to Vancouver and I didn't get to dance in Vancouver. I went to Bowen Island to visit a friend.

and I had been invited to Victoria Island, Vancouver Island, which is where Victoria is, which is just off of Vancouver. And they have a very sweet tango community. So there was dancing Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And Friday, it was like a little melonga that they have weekly. Saturday was at this woman's house, who I also ended up staying at, which is right on the water. Wow. Oh my God.

There were 10 of us staying there. That was amazing. People from Seattle and people from Vancouver and then the owners themselves. And this is probably their sixth or seventh time that they've done this private party. And they have tango in the living room. Tango where they put the floor down on two levels leading down to the ocean. Oh my gosh. It was amazing. DJ. These things I fantasize about. Oh, I mean, it was incredible.

So this is what I love about tango travel, is you get to meet 50 new people and in that 50 new people, you find five to 10 gems. It's sort of like going through a bag at the gem store. You know, you're going through and you're like, okay, yeah, I wouldn't buy that, I wouldn't buy that. But then you find this thing and you have this dance and you're like, I haven't had an embrace like this.

Wow. I don't know how long, but this is amazing. And the connection is just like, you know, off the charts and it's really exciting. And, and then you look forward to more of the same. And it was just so much fun. All these people, they've been there together before. And as it turned out, I knew most of them sort of vicariously, because my friend who I was visiting in Bowen Island was a dance choreographer. And so, um, two of the dancers there.

Yelizaveta (02:26.702)

taught at University of British Columbia, which is where my friend taught. And so they all knew Cornelius and we were talking about Cornelius and it was like this, like I felt like I already knew them. And so, and then, you know, so we put all the snores in one room and the rest of us were kind of spread out all over the house. Oh my gosh. So breakfast every morning was just wild. Dinner of course was wild and up to all hours.

So, yeah. And so you said this is a private event. It's a private. So the event at the house is a private event, but the other two events were not. But everybody from their community is invited. Interesting. Yeah. And then other people kind of come in who are invited. So you basically got...

to be part of this group. And this is their seventh time. Seventh time. There were a couple of misses for COVID. But yeah, yeah. So they've done it before. And they've had up to 200 people this time there were like 150 maybe. Yeah, that's so interesting. Because I was just talking about the whole idea of marathons and how things are kind of changing and people are not necessarily very interested in going to big, very opulent events. And it's a little bit more about

that intimacy that you might want. This was more intimate. This was definitely more intimate. Like you never felt that there was a lot of people. Like at the Malanga on the Friday night, there were probably 60 people. So it wasn't like a big. And did you lead as well as follow? I did. I was so proud of myself. I did more than once. Anytime I saw a woman leading, one woman, she totally rejected me.

Yelizaveta (04:48.522)

I was like, Oh, this is what the guys go through. She, when I kind of like tried to peek at her and she turned her head away. And then later I said to her, like, you know anytime you'd like to dance and she didn't even respond. Wow. Yeah. She just walked away. Walked away. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. And how did that feel?

horrible. That was such a fucked up experience. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. What did you do to recover? Just went and danced with somebody else. Yeah. You know, it wasn't that big of a deal. I mean, she's a much better lead than me. I mean, I can kind of see like, okay, yeah. She's like, yeah, I'm not going to dance with that woman. Who the hell is she? Yeah. So, so yeah, but I danced with a number of people, including the hostess of the event and

I got through a song and I was just like patting myself on the back. Like I survived. Yeah. I did okay. It wasn't like the most spectacular thing and I fucked up on things, but people didn't really know. Like I wanted to do something and it didn't turn out the way I thought it would. But oh, well. So yes, I did. I let every day. So that's wonderful. Yeah. Probably 10, 12 dances. I'm sure you probably got a lot of compliments too. Um, no.

Not really. I mean, like this one woman who's been leading for a while, I said, you know, I just want to let you know that I'm a beginner leader. And she's like, yeah, don't worry about it. And I'm like, okay, that's what I would say. Yeah. Don't worry about it. And then when it was over, she's like, you did fine. Like, okay, good. Fine is good enough for me. That's a huge compliment, you know? Like, because ultimately it's very much like down to earth, kind of. Yeah.

I'm in the trenches right now. Yeah. Definitely like, okay, I gotta work this. I forgot, okay, turn into the body. Yeah. Well, yeah. And you, cause you started leading, I know a couple of years ago, right? When Chica's first started, you were one of the first people. At that point, did you know how to lead anything? No. Nothing ever. But you were already an established follower.

Yelizaveta (07:08.298)

Yeah, I'm a savage follower and I know the music. And how long, up until that point, how long had you been dancing? Oh, a long time, 20 years. Wow. Yeah. Wow. I started dancing with Moti Bukbut, who's no longer teaching in our community. I know Moti, yeah, yeah. Big fan of Moti, he's so much fun. And I did that for a year, I just went once a week. Just once a week. Yeah. I never went to practica, I didn't even know they existed. I didn't know what a malanga was. Didn't even...

Nothing, no, I didn't know about social tango. I just wanted to learn the dance. I was like, oh, this is kind of interesting dance. People are like, why don't you come out? And I come out, like, where would I go? McDonald's? Like, where are we going? So what drew you to tango in the first place? So a patient of mine asked me if I would perform at her fundraiser for homeless women. And I have a dance background, I was a professional dancer. And I'm like, no, my day is dancing or over.

do that. And I thought about like, I could do something simple like tango. But wait, what was your conception of tango? Well, sensible woman. Aha. So you saw sent to the moon and you thought, Oh, that's tango. I can do that. I could do that. What is it? What is the that? What did you imagine? Oh, there was a richness in the sensuality and a connection. And yeah, I also

You know, I remember seeing that, and I think that movie always comes up for me as this cruel joke because what they're in the film showing is actually not tango. It's not. Like it's not tango at all. There's nothing about it. But because of really good cinematography and very skillful acting and all of that, it taps into some sort of unconscious

connection to what Tango represents. And so I too remember when I saw that film, what I thought about Tango and what I fantasized about is this idea of being this beautiful woman who is like moving in such a way that everybody like loves looking at her and then there's this grace and sensuality to it. But also that it was a blind man supposedly.

Yelizaveta (09:35.562)

a blind man leading, like you could do the movement and connect body to body without actually seeing, like it wasn't about her look, cause he couldn't see her, but he could feel her. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so you saw this film casually, and at that time- Years ago, years prior. You decided that's what tango is, and so you have this brilliant idea.

that you're going to dance some tango at a homeless. A choreographed dance. So there was somebody who wanted to dance with you already? No. You just came up with this idea. You're like, I'm going to find a tango dancer to perform with. Well, actually, as it turned out, I asked my friend who's a ballet dancer. Oh, interesting. And I said to him, do you know anybody that does tango? And would you do a tango with me? And like six.

months in, he's like, Oh, I have to have my hip replaced. I can't do it with you. And so I asked my teacher to perform with me, Moti. And he basically carried me around the floor because I didn't know anything. But at that point, when did you meet Moti? Were you already studying tango? No, I was studying tango. How did you get to meet Moti? He knew Moti. Ah, he said, Hey, I've got this friend and I think he does tango. We will call him up.

I'm like, okay, great, he'll choreograph a dance for us. Did he actually choreograph a dance? No, he just led you around. But I've only ever been in dances that are choreographed and you know what's gonna happen. What is gonna happen? Yeah, but in tango you don't know. Right, like what is gonna happen, exactly. You don't know what's gonna happen. I think that's what makes tango very mysterious. Anybody who has never done tango and looks at it when it's being done.

the number one question is, but how do you know to do that? How do you know to do that? And it feels like such a mystery. And I feel like it still remains a mystery, even though we take it so for granted. After some time you get used to it and it's just like second nature. We're not even appreciating its mysteriousness anymore. But anytime we try to talk about it and actually explain what it is, it comes back to this like.

Yelizaveta (12:00.846)

It's very hard to explain. I tell people, I tell people it's a little like the alphabet. A, walking. B, or chocortado. C, you know, like it's very, like these are the basics. You know, like if you had a piano and you know ABCDEFG, and then, but then how you mix up A with G as opposed to A with B with, Exactly, yeah. Then that's what makes it. But you, yeah, you learn your basics. Wow. And then you keep learning them and relearning them because sometimes you have to unlearn.

Yelizaveta (12:33.759)

Now, okay, so you got into tango from that experience. What was it about that experience that hooked you in? Music. Ah, what did you perform to? Whatever love.

No, you did not. So wait, that's not even a tango song. So you got into tango from watching a movie that did not actually have tango in it. And for Fonto's song, that's not actually a tango song.

But he just went, oh, that's what got me was the new ever. So it was the new. It is. Yeah. All those guys. So did you pick it up pretty quickly? No.

No, it was hard. It took me years. Even following, I would expect. No, I show up the next week and I'm like, what, you have to cross this leg over this leg? Because I'm a leader in my life. People don't show me what to do. I'm like, I'm the one showing, right? I am, I lead it in my house. I run my own business. I'm a leader. I get people to do things, that's what I do. But no, Tango, you don't even have to give it up.

So that was the hardest part. Hardest part to learn. Yeah. Um, so were you, what was the fear there? Like that, that in order it wasn't fear, it was just the fact that you just didn't know how to do it. No, how do you do it? How do you have somebody rotate you this way and you actually go that way, particularly if you have an idea to go the other way.

Yelizaveta (14:18.754)

Gotcha. It's like, well, why would you go that way? Why would you put your foot there on that note? So what was, how did you end up answering that question? Well, first, I just had to give it up. Had to just go, OK, you want to do that? Fine. We'll do it your way. It's kind of like my marriage. OK, you want to do it that way? Fine. We'll do it that way. But I think that this should be cooked this way.

So like in my house, I do all the cooking because I know how I want it done. So, and that's one of the things I like about leading is like, because I know the music, I mean, like not doing what I want to do yet, but I hear it and I know like, wow, look, you could do so much with that.

So yeah, so I got hooked because of the music and because of- So not particularly tango music, just the dancing to alt music and huevo kind of. Right. Yeah, okay. But you didn't start with leading. How come? I really didn't have-

Well, first of all, I didn't see other women leading. Okay. So it was kind of like understood that if you went into tango, I mean, it was like that for me too, when I went in, it was like a no brainer. There was not even a possibility that a woman would lead. Right, yeah. I have to say, like when I think, if I was to think of like the top 10 dances that I've had in my life, at least three of them have been with women.

Like the women are potent forces. Wow. Yeah. What do you think it is about dancing with women that's so different? I don't know, there's a richness to it. I danced with some women in Spain, she was a teacher. And I was like, oh my God, you just like went right into my body. Like it was just like remarkable. I think women are open differently and maybe have less of an agenda.

Yelizaveta (16:25.314)

They're not trying to show something or prove something in any way. That's my experience. Like, it's just, let's just dance. Do you think that being able to both follow and lead helps? Like, I feel for me.

The fact that I followed first really impacted the way I dance as a leader and how I feel to the followers. And a lot of the compliments that I've gotten over the years, I've always thought they really pointed to the fact that I kind of know what it's like being a follower. I understand what the follower needs because I know it intimately. So then as a leader, there are things that I consider

focusing on that a leader who does not follow might not even know exists. So that's kind of how I've explained it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really think I'm thinking about the follower when I'm leading yet. I don't think I'm there yet with that.

I'm just more like, can I produce a step? Sad to say, like right now I'm just like, okay, I'm gonna do an Ocho Cortado here. Okay, keep my heels together, rotate the torso, keep my frame. Okay, where's my head? Like I'm still thinking about the basics rather than the enjoyment or even my partner. So, but you started with following

did you decide that you wanted to try leading? Yeah. So Dom and was in, we were in Zagreb together in Yugoslavia a few years ago. She says, Oh, I'm going to take this women leading, leading. I'm like, I want to do that. I've been wanting to do that. Like I had been in a loneliness class a couple of times. And she's like, will you be a leader? I'm like, I don't know how to do that.

Yelizaveta (18:30.174)

And so I could like walk somebody from point A to point B, but I had absolutely no clue really what was required to be a follower. And so when you're- To be a follower? To be a leader. And then when you came along, I was like, oh yay, I'm so excited. Yes, this is exactly what I need. A woman teaching me how to be a leader.

And with the level of technique that you do it and how you explain it and all that. I'm like, I tell everybody. And it's just like, you gotta do this. Yeah. No, it's great. I appreciate that. Yeah. So I'm curious for. So that was two years ago. Yeah. Two years ago. And then your class was starting when we came back from Europe. Right. And we started together and that was fun. Yeah, that was fun. That was fun. It was very.

It was exactly the way you would film it. You know, it starts with this question mark. If I put this out there, is there anybody going to be there who likes the idea? Right. You know, and I remember I.

I kind of tried to get it started before COVID. I tried a few times to start classes for women leading, but I always chickened out because I just had so many doubts in my own ability and whether I was good enough to take on that role of teaching other women to lead, and did I know enough, and all those questions. But finally, after COVID, I think

this moment in a shower one day, you know, where I was just like, chica zeltengo. Yeah. That's it. You know, and I just started it. And then, you know, it started with a handful of women and it feels like the thing that I knew right away when I started it is that it was gonna be a long term investment, you know, because you're two years in and

Yelizaveta (20:38.906)

You've obviously made a huge amount of progress from the two years prior, of course. But even after two years, it's still, you know, it's still a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And I'm very much a beginner, but I don't mind. And I've had a lot of guys warn me, you know, you're not going to be as good of a follow once you start to lead.

You've had that comment more than once I've had guys so interested worried that my following ability is gonna go down the tubes What is what they think? I'm gonna be from harder. I mean several people have said, you know Yeah, the fault the followers that become harder to lead and

Yeah, I mean, it feels so strange that anybody would say that because in my mind, it always makes a follower better. It actually made me a little reticent because I don't want to be a lousy follow. But of course not. But in the end, I'm not worried. Yeah, because I mean, it

even if you assess yourself, like, do you think you are a worse or better follower now? Better. Better, of course. Yeah. Hands down. Yeah. I mean, for me, learning to lead actually illuminated so much about my own mistakes and blind spots that you just, you're not aware of until you feel it as a leader. And suddenly you're like, wow, didn't realize this felt so shitty. Yeah. Hold up.

So for me, things like posture, losing balance, why that happens, or even just the mistakes and the alignment in my arms. Like there was so much revealed from learning the opposite role.

Yelizaveta (22:33.482)

And I do believe that if we had men, leaders who decided to learn to follow, they would get better at leading. I've also observed that. I agree, I agree. And also, I mean, my experience with a lot of guys is not all guys go to classes regularly. So that would be a way for them, like I don't really take classes as a follower much anymore, which is kind of disappointing.

Yelizaveta (23:03.776)

Yeah, why do you say it's disappointing? Well, I kind of got bored with my own dancing Kind of bored with my own dancing. So yeah, because you feel like you're not getting much from the classes Yeah, yeah It does seem like the structure is sort of outdated because it's still very much taught like okay leaders you do this follows You follow the leader. Yeah, and then yeah, it's a little bit well And also like the way you teach you don't

teach, first you're going to do an otro cortado, then you're going to do a barrida, and then you're going to do it like you don't teach that way. And so already you're teaching how tango really is, which is like, okay, yeah, you've got the basics, but how you put it together is up to you. And so, whereas most classes are really, you know, here we're going to do this spectacular move, and then you're going to practice it until you're blue in the face, but then it'll be the

right? But then you even might not even remember it. And you might not even remember it. And then you're really frustrated. And then you're like, Oh, my memory is going, or it's not in my body yet. So how do I retrieve it? Yeah. Yeah, it really feels like. Can you say it a little closer to the

Tango is sort of a long term, like a long term game, just in terms of to learn it, to be able to actually do it, it just takes time for it to sort of process inside your body. Right. So even though in two years, anybody who might look at you as a leader, they might say, wow, she knows how to lead. Right. Because you, you have the basics. You can stay in line of dance.

You know the basic etiquette. So you're like a fully functional Leader I am yep, and it's still also the case that you're you a beginner you feel like a beginner because you're still dealing with these fundamental things right and I think there's a lot of anxiety for a lot of women who are thinking about leading But then they have this voice inside themselves saying like oh no, it's too complicated. It's too Like I'm not there yet

Yelizaveta (25:23.084)

or following yet, I don't, you know, it's going to be, you know, too mysterious to whatever. And a lot of times, I think it comes from this fear that somehow we're not equipped to handle it. Right. But I think, like just watching the group, you know, chicas over the couple of years, it's like, right away, you guys were already equipped. Right. Like you could understand the basic concepts,

integrate, you could fix your mistakes, you were ready to work. So the transition to actually starting to lead was pretty quick, right? But then the rest of the time is spent just refining, refining. Yeah. I mean, for me, like the first time that I went to a Malonga and actually led,

I mean, thank goodness it was somebody that I knew from class. One, two, we split it, you know, one you, one me, you know, because it's exhausting. Is it? For me, it's still exhausting. Like so much thinking and, oh, what about that? And yeah, okay. Well, wait, that's like five steps. That's it. That's all I could produce over that whole three minute song. Like there's a lot of like, well, I want to do this. Oh, I already missed the music.

And for me, that's just exhausting. And so then I like, then my partner will do something. I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. We have this and we've got this. And then the next song becomes even better and more exciting. But it's still, it's, yeah. I'm definitely a basic dancer. No question. I still feel basic myself. Do you? Honestly, I, even after all these years of...

studying it, but I think some of it has to do with what you're aspiring to. Right. If you're looking at a dancer who's- No, I aspire to be an excellent lead. Right. So for me, looking at the people that I admire, of course, the benchmark is pretty high. Right. And I think it should be. I think you should have that feeling of- Well, I know it's possible. For sure. Yeah. And it's also, I mean, the moment you actually get that benchmark, I think you-

Yelizaveta (27:42.248)

already are working towards it just by holding it there. Yeah. And it's only a matter of time that you get there. But then you need a new benchmark. Yeah. So for me, I guess I got this to this place where I was like, what about no benchmarks? What is it? What does it mean to dance without a benchmark where I'm not like

trying to dance like someone else, or trying to do as many things as someone else is doing. Right. And what else is there, if that's not there to take its place. So that's kind of where I'm at with my dance and it still feels very much like...

Wow, you just know these five things, huh? You're just doing the same thing over and over again. Well, yeah, but you're in a void. If you don't have something to aspire to, then you're in a void. You're on your, I mean, tango's a little like that anyway. Like you start on a dance and you don't know all the variables. What's the music gonna be? Is there movement in the room itself? Are there people crashing into you? What if your follow is like having a bad day? What if you've never actually

dance with that person. There's so many things. That's the void, really, for me. It's like, okay, well, we're embarking on this journey together. That part's fun. But it could go south and has. Yes. If something is bad, it's not a personal vendetta against you. It's just a fact of life. There must be bad things as well as good things. There must be bad dances. I've had them as a leader. That's for sure.

As a follower, I mean. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, as followers, I think we have more bad dances than leaders have bad dancers. A lot of times just because we're on the receiving end of the capo sale. I think I'm curious. So when you decided to perform with Moti, and then was it right away that day you were like, Okay, that's it. I'm I have to study tango. It was or was it

Yelizaveta (29:50.833)

I'm just going to continue with this study. Gotcha. I'm just going to continue. And because I'm a dancer.

in my body anyway. Like it wasn't something like, Oh, well, I put six months of effort into that. Okay, I'm going to throw that out. It's just like my Italian. I've been working on Italian for years and years and years. I guess just I'm that kind of person. I'm committed. I know I'm in it for the long haul. Gotcha. And so you proceeded to just take classes and not going out. So correct. And how long did it take you until you started? Probably another year. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah,

interest in going out or being social. What was your first time at a milonga like? Well, sort of my class went to a milonga. So it was kind of, it wasn't really that different. Gotcha. It was just a group that you just a group. And then we all went dancing to a small place around the corner.

was like, oh, okay, well, this is kind of like what class is like. And so I didn't really know much about campus SAO. I didn't know, you know, people are just like, hey, you wanna dance? Because they're people from my class. And so at which point did you go to like a- Went to Buenos Aires. So from- From that experience.

Yelizaveta (31:17.01)

All right, so go ahead and take that bottle hot sauce and drink from it directly. That's it. So you went to Buenos Aires and that was your first taste of actually what it's like. And what stood out to you? Well I landed and I stayed with a tango person and she organized it like I landed at nine and by 11 o'clock I was in a Mulanga. And then I met a woman.

And I was just going to go and take classes. And then I met a woman.

at El Beso, like the night after. And she says, oh, I just took this intensive with a woman named Luciana Valle. Oh, wow. That's exactly what I want. I want to all day do everything all at once. And there were a lot of tears, a lot of tears. Cause I just, you know, I was just burnt, just burnt. But it was so much fun. So it was 10 women and 10 men being led by 10 professionals.

So and then we would all go out and have lunch we'd all go out and buy shoes and then we'd go to Malonga every night and Yeah, so people kind of look at you and you know, then you or they don't wow I ended up sitting a lot and I really don't like to sit so Yeah, you kind of put yourself through the wringer right away. Yeah, and how long was the trip? two weeks

So then you came back. Yeah. And at that point, you were like, Okay, I need to get better at tango. And so you were more committed.

Yelizaveta (32:55.834)

Now, when did your husband think of all of this tango? Well, his friends give him a lot of grief. Really? They're like, really, you're going to let your wife go and dance tango? Like, they don't get it. So for a while, he was taking classes as well, private classes. So I have a studio at my house, and so I would bring in different teachers to teach a group of us. And so it was very small and intimate and, you know, just the basics. I've had all kinds of different people come.

So he did that with me for a while. And, but he, he's very shy and he wants to be perfect and there is no such thing. And so after two years of really good commitment, he is like, no, I don't want to do this. Wow. Yeah. So, but, but having done it, he kind of knows a little bit what it's like. So he's secure. He doesn't feel and kind of threatened. Yeah, he doesn't feel threatened. Or intimidated.

but his friends feel threatened for him. They do. Interesting. Yeah, I'm curious, because I don't get to really talk to people of that group, right? Like, friends of people whose spouse is dance tango. And I'm curious, what is it that they're afraid of? Is it like basically that dancing tango is equivalent to like having an affair of some kind? Is that like the fear? That there's some sort of sexual or sensual...

What's the word? It's just like the level of contact. It's too intimate. It's very intimate. It can be. The closeness is not something that you experience anywhere else in life, really, except in your home. Yeah, and it's true. And I think for me, that's been a huge piece that is really relevant, because I think...

at the end of my life, how many people would I have actually hugged closely? You know, like intimate, like I smell their sweat and I can hear their breath. I can smell their, their body odor and their, their mouth breath and everything. Like their sweat is dripping on your sweat is on your face. And somehow to me, that's an achievement. Cause I think about COVID and how we didn't have that.

Yelizaveta (35:19.408)

that access, you know? Right.

to me, I value that a lot these days. So it does seem like for people outside of Tango, who don't really relate to this idea of like, Oh yeah, on any given night, you're just going to go. And you're going to be like, you know, hugging and smelling this person. And then you're going to do that with 30 different people. It's really, I tell people it's a meditation for me. I literally

present. If I think about, oh, did I turn the oven off?

I've already missed 10 steps. Wow. And so, yeah, so it invites presence like nothing else in my life. Yeah, except for when I meditate myself, but. I've heard other people refer to their experience of tango as a meditation. Like saying, you know, I can't meditate in other ways but when I dance tango, this is the closest I get to meditation. Yeah, yeah. And to me, it seems like

meditation. I wonder if we ever have a chance to like, put, you know, electrodes on our head while we're dancing, I bet they would find that this the brain states that we're accessing are probably very similar to meditation. I mean, sometimes when I'm come out, I like, where am I? Who am I?

Yelizaveta (36:47.55)

What city am I in? Who am I dancing with even? What's my name? Yeah, no, it's really, it's pretty dramatic. So you come back from Buenos Aires, and now you're on a journey, you're committed, you're gonna do it, your husband decides to let you go, and you've been happily living this way. And at what point did you start to travel, and this is kind of what inspired me to even do this interview,

I'm so fascinated how you've managed to tap into such a fantastic lifestyle of traveling around the world and dancing with so many people. It kind of evolved. I love to travel. My husband doesn't like to travel. So another way that you guys are very opposite. We are in many ways. So I have a friend, Amadea, and she's a painter. And so we like art. She's an artist. I'm not an artist.

We like to travel. So several years we went.

We studied with Ciccio one year in Southern Italy and another year we went and studied with. So we went and then every city that we went to, oh, let's look for the local Molonga. And this is the beauty of the internet, right? You go online, you know, Molonga's in Rome, you know, Molonga's in Venice, Molonga's in da-da-da-da. So now, and I actually prefer to go to Molonga's than actually marathons and for sure not festivals. Can't handle festivals.

as a woman. Yeah, just because you're not you don't get as much dancing as you want. But if you go to Milan and you show up at a Malanga.

Yelizaveta (38:30.922)

your new meet. And new meet, it was like, oh, there's a woman standing in the corner and she's got her red dress on. I've never seen her before. And if you work at it, you're able to get somebody out there and you do a few little things and people are like, oh wait, she can actually dance. And then you end up dancing the whole night. Or sometimes, like the first time I went to Milan, I met this guy online, I asked him if he would teach me. We didn't have a phone. We decided that we would meet at such and such a place at such and such a time.

pouring rain, he and his wife picked me up, he takes me to his studio, we have an hour lesson, and then he and his wife took me dancing. Wow. So generous. I danced all night, I'm like, okay, well, we're gonna do that again. So we had another lesson, we went to another melonga, right? And then I met a couple of guys, and they're like, well, I'll drive you home. I'm like, mm-hmm, yeah.

of worked out that every night because he liked dancing with me because I'm such a different dancer than his wife, the third night they took me to their home, they fed me dinner. Like where are you going to get where you go immersion into the culture immediately? You're not a tourist. You're there. You're in it. And you got to practice your Italian. And I get to practice my Italian. Yeah. Because you know, a lot of people don't speak English and even if they do, I want to speak

So you just started to travel through connections with different people. And different people ask you on a trip and you go and then you make the next connection, which is such an organic and natural way of doing it. And I feel like this is the kind of art that we've lost to a certain degree. We don't really know how to connect with people outside of prescribed.

codes, you know, tango, it's like, okay, you go to a Malonga, women sit over there, men sit over here. Yeah. And that's one way of doing it. But then I'm realizing there's all this other tango that can happen that is on this other plane. Yeah, that's much more.

Yelizaveta (40:47.81)

childlike almost like you just you're going on a journey to discover yeah and it's fun and you're making friends. Well and that's for me what travel is so one year Amadeus and I were in Paris and we go to Malanga and there's two guys and us and then the guy that I ended up dancing with Christian

It was his last dance in tango, literally. He's like, he said, I'm quitting tango. And people said, no, you have to have your last tango in Paris. And so he came. And then the next day he invited me to go and dance with him on the Seine. So we're dancing outside on the Seine, sharing our ear pods. And you know, like really, like, yeah, it doesn't get much better than that. Pretty good dancer, but amazing. So then I have his number and the next year is like, come to Copenhagen.

I'm like, oh yeah. So first we went to Barcelona and we were dancing in Barcelona and then we go to Copenhagen. It was just so lovely. And have you had experiences where, you know, men make a pass at you and they're trying to, you know, how do you handle that? Because I'm sure some women might be, not scared, but like anxious about that as traveling by themselves.

Yeah, thanks, but no thanks. Yeah, just pretty basic. Thanks, but no thanks. But most of the guys, you know, because I'm older and they're younger, they're not going to do that anyway. So that becomes like a nonissue. Like we were with this guy, we were in Barcelona and there were no hotel rooms. So we go into this brothel, not knowing that it's a brothel. And you're like walking down the hall and you have to hide behind the curtain until the light is green and then you can walk to your room. And then we're like, yeah,

stay here. But then he's like this hotel, you know, they only have a single bed, you'll have to sleep in the same bed as me. I'm like, yeah, well, I could do that. But then we ended up going out of town, we found a place. But you know, but it's, but it's okay, because it's clear this we're not, this is not where we're at. We're just friends. And if we end up sleeping in the same bed, you know, there it is, but it's not.

Yelizaveta (43:02.27)

it's not that kind of a thing. Yeah, it's amazing to experience that level of freedom and both hold that level of trust with your partner because I know when somebody who doesn't dance tango, when they hear all of that, they'll be like, oh, with another man. You would spend the night in the same bed with another man. But it's like when you are a tango dancer and physical contact is just

matter of fact, it's not a privilege in any way. It's not like where it automatically turns you on in any way that maybe the thing that I'm pointing to is that what I realized is that Tango made me see that there are so many degrees of intimacy, like it's a whole spectrum and that yes, Tango invites a lot of intimacy and a lot of

perhaps even feeling, but you also have a lot of will and a lot of autonomy when it comes to how much and for how long and how deep it goes. So learning that piece for me actually was a huge development in my life as a woman where I was like, oh, not only can I say no,

Like that's one boundary, but I can say yes to other things. Right. It's like I don't have to say no to everything. I can say no to exactly the things I don't want. Right. So that's beautiful. That's a really cool thing that you're sharing for you. Now, when you go to a new place, like a new city, and you're saying, it sounds like you kind of have your own strategy by this point. I do. You know how to travel.

Travel light. Yeah, exactly. And it sounds like you figured out like, what are the things that you need in place to increase your chances of success when you go to Malanga? One of them is wearing a red dress. For sure. That helps. Yep. What else did you find when you travel internationally really helps you get the dances? You have to walk in knowing that you're going to get asked.

Yelizaveta (45:23.958)

Like I'm not gonna just stand here in the corner. This corner didn't work, I'm gonna go stand in that corner. Oh, that corner didn't work? Oh, but look at that guy, he's standing there all, hi, my name's Sarah, I'm from Los Angeles. Like I'll just introduce myself to, particularly if you speak to somebody in Italian and they're Italian, they're like, oh, she speaks my language. And she's kind of forward, just to go up and introduce yourself. And then you chat for one tanda.

ask you to out for the next tanda then it's time to move on. Wow so that's how you that you know that's a pretty organic way of doing it too.

I tend to if I'm gonna do a chat a seo situation, a chat a seo, if I'm gonna do it, it's a good way of doing it like in the middle of a tanda, because then you automatically are signaling that you know, it's the middle of the tanda, I'm not gonna like ask you or expect that you asked me now. Yeah, but it gives us that time to just sort of feel it out to see if it works. Right. And then yeah, that cue of like, oh, it's not working out. Yeah, yeah,

get some water. I'm gonna go get some wine. Wait, before you go, do you want to dance? Okay, yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like there is practical sort of things you can do like wearing a red dress and being visible, being visible for being hanging out by the food, hanging out by the food. I keep saying that the snack bar, it's like where it's at. A lot of movement there.

Yeah, movement, moving around in the room. And then the other thing that you said, I think that's a real, like, a real fuel for all of this. You gotta walk in knowing you're gonna get asked. Yeah. And I think that attitude is perhaps what people really want to develop and maybe don't know how, because there's gonna be, a lot of times there's insecurity. Well, and the other thing is, don't sit in the line of 20 other women.

Yelizaveta (47:28.066)

Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, don't say there's 20 women on this side of the room. Don't sit there First of all, you can't tell when somebody's actually come to saying you yeah, right? I was like no it ends up being the person next to you Right, so move you got to move. Yeah I mean, I don't mind chatting with another woman sitting next to me particularly with somebody that I enjoy talking to but then

Have you always had this sense of confidence in tango? No. Uh-huh. How long did it take you to develop that? Or what helped you get there? What are you feeling this way? Well, I'm older. So because I'm older, and I don't need you to fuck me.

I don't, you know, like that's not why I'm here. I just want I just want to dance and I want to play. So I'm not I'm not here to pick somebody up or be picked up. So it takes a whole element out of it in terms of like.

Like I don't have to protect myself from the guys that do want that because the minute you're in the embrace there's like, that's what they want. And you're like, you just kind of pull back energetically. Yeah, I'm just gonna be very professional here and I'm gonna move with you, but I'm not gonna get into that kind of deeper like, yeah. I've had dancers like that.

question if you've had that those experiences and you are describing the sense of pulling back so still being connected in the dance, but some kind of withholding. Yeah, yeah, that's just a part of me that just pulled back. I'm like, I'm here. I'm separate from you. I'm not going home with you. Yeah.

Yelizaveta (49:18.502)

So you're saying this kind of confidence developed with age for you? Well, yeah. Or did you always feel this way when you first started tango? With age. But also because I'm an older person, yeah, it's just, I mean, people don't whistle at me when I go down the street anymore. So I don't have to deal with that level of, they don't objectify me like they used to when I was younger.

Do you mind me asking how old you are? 67. Like even at the airport, a guy goes, wow, you're really spry. How old are you? I'm like, 67. He's like, really? Yeah.

Spry is a very good word to describe you. I love that word, spry. I have to use that more often. Yes, that's exactly how I would describe you as well. And so it's, yeah, you're describing this phase that women perhaps are really scared of where it gets into this place where you're not being objectified.

And I think I've heard this sentiment a lot that as women age, it's like, there's this anxiety about their tango that I had, I had somebody the other day said, you know, I'm just kind of thinking of what's going to happen after tango. What comes after tango? And I said, why are you thinking about that? And she said, well, you know, I'm getting older and I'm not, I'm not getting noticed as much, you know? And I

I sense that every woman has this little bit of anxiety. But I'm kind of getting the sense that perhaps we don't need to be that worried about it because it's ultimately everything's fine. Like just because you're not being objectified like doesn't mean your value changes or that suddenly you don't get the dances. It does change. You're not gonna get those dances. I don't get.

Yelizaveta (51:18.944)

asked by a lot of younger men who are on the scene to pick women up. They don't get asked. Neither do I, honestly. Because I. So that means that, and that the older group that's asking me to dance, a lot of them can't do much other than dance. So. But that's where the sifting comes in that you're talking about. That you become.

the searcher for the right match, right? You go through and you dance with people and figure it out. But it seems like the, there's ample opportunity for really good tango, even when your value shifts from being more like an object of desire to being, you know, a person. A person, a person who has something to offer. And I think for me,

interesting to even shift.

my sense of what I'm attracted to because sure, it used to be that I'm, I was very drawn to like the best looking guys in the room. And I want to dance with that tall dude wearing a suit, you know, but even now, like for me as a dancer, not just being older, but just having been in tango for a long time, it's like, my taste has moved on. Like that's not that interesting. And I think what I, what you're showing is that tango at any time continues

different levels there's so much depth there well and then the other thing that we don't talk about much is that when i'm dancing with a guy between dances i will often comment about their dancing wow i really noticed that

Yelizaveta (53:07.334)

I really noticed that you're very present in your dancing. I really noticed that, or when somebody does a really interesting, they're like, oh, that was good. Like I comment on it. So, because I know that, that men are thoughtful about their tango. So why wouldn't I, why wouldn't I comment on it? And hey, I noticed just like you would say, Hey, I really like your broach. It's the same kind of thing. Like, yeah, you did that differently than, oh, that's a new move for you. I haven't seen you do that before.

So I will comment, which lets them know that I'm noticing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is what ultimately, when I listen to milongueros talk about what they want, that's what they want. They want to be appreciated for what they're bringing. Yeah, what they bring to the table. To the partnership. So why wouldn't you comment on it?

So you... And it's always good to never say, you know, oh, that was really bad. No, you wouldn't do that. Of course not. Wouldn't even do that to my best friend. I'm glad this is over. So you are now back from this travel. What is your next traveling adventure? Ireland and Scotland.

And when is this happening? I'm going to a wedding in Ireland. And we're figuring out the schedule of my son and I. So the three of us, my son, my husband, and I are going. And then I'm gonna have my husband come back on his own. Oh. And you're gonna- He doesn't know yet.

And then I'm going to go. Did you listen to this podcast? Because you might find out. We'll find out by the end of tonight, actually. And then I hope to meet a couple of the people that I met when I was in Bergen. Nice. They're going to a festival. And then.

Yelizaveta (55:01.634)

hoping that I'll be able to kind of sneak in because they know that they know the people running it. See, that's the other thing is that, you know, when you meet the people that actually run the events that I get in. Yeah, because I don't have a partner. Right. So getting in as a woman unless you sign up the day is hard to get in.

And that yeah, that seems to be a real problem. Yeah, I don't have a partner. Yeah, I hear of women having to pay for a partner to join them. Yeah, for their ticket and their time. Like so they like a taxi dancer for the whole event. Well, and I'm willing to do that.

You are. You're into the taxi dance. I'm not into it. But if that's what it takes, you'll do it. Yeah. Because that's what hiring that's what hiring that first teacher in Milan was. It's like, okay, you've met me. Hopefully you'll take me out dancing. Oh, you took me out dancing. Great. Well, I in my gratitude, I will pay you again for that one tango lesson, even though you're not a very good teacher.

but then he organized that all the English speakers would be at the next Malanga we went to. Right. So there was this reciprocity. And his wife, meanwhile, is so grateful that I'm bugging him. Why are you smoking? Right. So like, I, I got him so much, right. And she was like, Oh yeah. Like, she's not like, get rid of this woman. She's like, yeah, bring her along. Let's see if in three days you can convince him to stop smoking. Wow. So I'm more outspoken.

and that helps in some ways.

Yelizaveta (56:41.738)

We didn't get to dive into all of your other explorations. I think that will be a sequel. I would love to hear more about that. But I'm glad I got to catch you in between all of your travels. And thank you for being so generous with your time. Oh yeah. Great having you on the banter. Good to be here. All right. Yeah, thank you. That was it. Awesome, yeah. And I realized as I was watching you that I should have put a pillow on the.