(Are we?) Dancing in Circles: the role of marathons in social tango

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Hey everyone, it's so good to have you here for the 76th episode of the Tango Banter. I am Yelizaveta. We are talking about marathons this week, both on my podcast episode, as well as in my live banter this Friday.

If you haven't joined or... heard about joining my live banters on Fridays, consider this to be my formal invitation for you to come along and chit chat with us on Friday this week at 1230 p.m. Pacific Time inside my private Facebook group.

You can join the group via the link that's in the show notes. And if you're the kind of person who likes to have a reminder and you want an email sent to you the day of with all the links so you don't have to guess where to go or how to get there, then go ahead and sign up for my newsletter, which is also available through the link in the show notes.

So most people that I talk to have a lot to say about tango marathons. And I gotta say, there's been a lot of conversation about tango marathons and whether people are really enjoying them or not. There's a bit more grumbling these days that I'm hearing from social dancers who complain that when they go to tango marathons, they're not really getting what they're after.

And of course, what we're all after is getting more dances, more quality dances with new people, meeting new people and finding that magic with dancers that we've danced before and also new dancers to us. So, you know, there's this amazing quality of romance that tango marathons have, this allure, this promise of spending three days or four days dancing and sort of being transported into this other dimension where it's all about the music and dressing up and there's this social component to it.

There's the intrigue and the mysteriousness of it and the risk. the question of whether you're gonna get that thing that you're after or not. It's a little bit of a hunt, a little bit of a fishing expedition. So recently, post-COVID, there's been a rise in the number of marathons and marathon-like events around the United States, around the world. It seems like every week there is a marathon somewhere. I'm constantly getting notifications about events. People want to share more and more information about events.

Even within my private Facebook group, there's people constantly trying to share information about Tango events. And I typically don't like to do that inside the group, just because it's... so much of that happens elsewhere. So my group is just really for this purpose of conversation and not for the purpose of advertising. But if you are not in the know about what events are happening and you want some recommendation on which events to go to, I would encourage you just to start looking on Facebook.

Ask around, just ask a couple of people and I'm sure you're going to find out about a lot of events that are happening everywhere. So for me, as an art historian, I'm really interested in how certain conventions and people, particular communities. And when it comes to the idea for Tango Marathon, this is a fairly recent development in Tango's history. The first Tango Marathon, I think, happened in the early 2000s.

And I'm not sure who was the first person did a tango marathon, but it could be Alex Krebs because that's what I heard. So maybe some of you know differently, but it is rumored that Alex Krebs came up with this idea of having an event that does not have any sort of activity outside of dancing. So that it's really about just dancing and having really good DJs and have it be a party for a few days.

That was the original inspiration for the idea. So when I came into tango in around 2009 and I started learning the ropes and understanding what the culture was about, I first went to festivals and then I learned that marathons are basically like festivals with no classes, no performances. And when I moved to Portland in 2014, I really immersed myself in the lifestyle and the culture of social dance. I went to every milonga I possibly could, and at that time there thankfully was something several nights a week.

I also eventually got really involved with the Fusion community there, and they have an equivalent to Marathons. In their... in their community and they call it a recess. So recess is like a marathon for the fusion community where they get together for three days and dance and it's a party. So I have a lot of experience with that culture as a dancer and I also volunteered a lot in different events and served on the organizing team for some of the festivals. And so I have a lot of experience with this concept. and a lot of history.

So I know it from different angles. And for me, I've been noticing that from my perspective, the original inspiration for a tango marathon, whether Alex Grubbs was the one who came up with it or not, I think the concept came as a response, as an alternative to the more conventional model of a festival. So it served the purpose of providing something other than what was being offered.

And I think whoever did it first was observing that people were really wanting to just dance and not have to sit through performances or take classes. So it was an answer to a need. And the way things are now in 2023 is it feels like now a new need has arisen. And the concept of a marathon is sort of shifting. It's shifting. in definition and what really is a marathon these days and what it involves. And it's also providing an opportunity to acknowledge some other things that people are starting to awaken to that they want as dancers.

So this is what this episode is really about, is opening up that conversation and maybe somewhat zooming out and looking at what has been the role of marathons, what has been the purpose of the marathons in our communities, and how can we either improve the structure, the organization of marathons so that it provides certain things that dancers are asking for, or whether we come up as a community, we come up with some other innovative structures to provide this thing that seems to be missing for a lot of people.

And so I wanna sort of really understand and explore what is it that we're needing and that we're not getting. So in my own experience of Marathon, as I said, I was a Marathon junkie for quite a number of years. There was always an event that I was preparing for and I was always feeling a lot of FOMO if I did not go to an event. I at first volunteered at a lot of events, which is a common way to get into events in exchange. you know, instead of paying to just volunteer. So I did that.

And every time, you know, there was a magical thing that happened. Every event that I've gone to, you know, there was at least a little bit of magic. Even the worst event that I've had, the worst experience I've had at an event, still there was something positive. So I'm always excited to go to an event and there's always this anticipation of, oh, who's going to be there? What's the music going to be like?

And who am I going to see? What conversations am I going to have? And there's that anticipation that builds. But I noticed over time that there was something happening inside of me where I kind of, I was starting to feel like it's the same thing over and over again. And this is where I'm kind of echoing some of the sentiment that I've been hearing from people recently that it's like everywhere they go, it's the same thing. And they're not talking about it in a positive way. And I had this experience last fall, almost a year ago, actually.

Yeah, almost a year ago I had this experience. And it was so baffling to me that I couldn't even talk about it because I didn't understand what was happening. I got to go to an event that I wanted to go to for a long time. It was my first time dancing in this community. The event itself was really highly recommended and everybody talked about how amazing it was the year prior, which was like the first year post covid that they were having it. So really an amazing event by all accounts.

So I was super excited to go to this event. And so I go and it's true. It was a beautiful event, gorgeous venue. amazing live music and lighting and the DJs and the food and the level of dancing was just so wonderful.

Every dancer I looked on the dance floor, it really was the case that almost every dancer was of the highest caliber. And yet, I found myself feeling a little bit disconnected and kind of bored. It's so weird, right? Some of you are like, oh, first world problems. And it's true. I kind of judge myself for even feeling that. And that's why I couldn't really place my finger on it. I was like, how do I feel this? Why am I not enjoying myself? Like what kind of a spoiled bitch am I? Like what else am I missing?

And I remember leaving the event and just being kind of deflated from the whole experience because I felt like, man, I spent all this energy going out there and after three days I'm exhausted, I'm sleep deprived and I didn't even get the thing craving and I don't even know what it was that I was craving because on paper.

This was like the most amazing event that checked out in every way, you know so I came home and I kind of brushed it aside and when people asked me how it went. I was really honest and I did say that it was the highest level event I had attended in a long time.

But then if I talked about it a little bit further, I was also honest that I didn't find myself enjoying it as much as I would expect. So then a couple of weeks later, I ended up at a small house party. It was a birthday party of some kind with some friends. And, you know, it was one of those typical California... Saturday afternoon types of things that goes into the evening. There's music in the house and a dance floor and people are dancing in their socks.

And then there's a pool and a hot tub. And it's kind of like the perfect leisurely afternoon that I can fathom. And we're at this party and I ended up dancing a lot. And it was just this little nothing kind of event. But afterwards I thought, my God, I got this thing. I feel like I had so much fun from this event that's like this small little house party with very few people, just a handful of people that I dance with or that would dance with me, but I actually had so much more fun.

So that contrast was a little seed, I think, that was planted in my mind about this phenomenon that I think is happening for a lot of people that we're after this magical connection and intimacy and magic that might spark between you and another person. We're looking for that on the dance floor and it seems like the marathons are a perfect environment for that to happen but It doesn't really happen because the culture of marathons really is kind of the same across the board. It doesn't matter what country you're in.

A big tango event is always going to have the same components. There's the group of cliques and people who belong to those cliques and those dancers dance amongst themselves. There's that group. Like, you know, we say that we go to marathons to dance with new people, but then a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people just go so they can dance with the same people. And some of us actually do that ourselves.

I'm perhaps sometimes guilty of that because sometimes I like dancing with new people and other times I don't like it and I just wanna dance with the people that I know. So it depends. And... Yeah, there's, I think the gender imbalance also plays a role. And the gender imbalance is a consistent problem that's been happening in marathons where it's two to one or worse, leaders to followers, two to one followers to leaders.

So for every leader, there's at least two or three women waiting to dance. And it seems like And so a lot of women sit out and wait to be asked. And there's a lot of frustration among women about that. So. I think that... The phenomenon of clickishness is something that happens, I think, in every scene, in every community, every dance scene. It's sort of high school all over again. And you'll always see representations of these different... forms of social order in any group.

There's always going to be the people who are on the inside and people who are on the outside. And when it comes to clickishness in tango, it really rubs people and offends people because I understand we go into tango and we think, you know, how do we learn to be really good dancers? We need to be dancing with really good dancers, but how do we get to dance with really good dancers if we're not good enough to dance with them?

You know, it's definitely a conundrum. And it's sort of a mystery how to convince an advanced dancer to dance with you if you're a beginner. And there's all sorts of suggestions and advice and prescriptions that you can be given so that you become more attractive to advanced dancers. So. It's a little bit frustrating to experience that.

And it really feels icky to be on the outside, to look on and see those people and they're having fun and they're like dancing with each other and they have all this camaraderie and they're having fun and joking. And you're sort of looking on and thinking, what's wrong with me? Why can't I have that?

And maybe you don't necessarily want to have that you just want to have an in you want to you want to feel that you're acknowledged right that people will open up to you because you know they should especially at an event like a big tango marathon people should want to dance with everybody because that is the better that's something that is best for the We have that value.

A lot of people comment on that, that it's in our best interest for all of us to dance with everyone, at least a little bit, so that we're helping beginners and we're fostering that evolution in tango. So we want that, but the reality is there's always gonna be clicks and they are always there, especially in tango. I... I had experienced this feeling for myself the first time I went to Buenos Aires.

The very, very first milonga I attended, I was really new, I was about a year and a half into tango and I remember sitting at the wall at this venue, it was just a single row of tables and chairs and up against the wall. And I was looking over at the opposite corner, there was a table full of people and... They were having so much fun altogether, and I'm sitting there looking at them going, oh my God, how fun are they having?

And I just felt this longing for that camaraderie, to be able to experience that, to be on the inside. And I felt like there was no way I could penetrate that, or I was so different from that, that I didn't get to be. part of that, like there was just real tension inside of me. And so in some way, that was sort of a planting of the seed of this desire, like I want to experience that. I want to be in the in crowd, you know, I want to be part of that.

And it's not like I was consciously aware. of what was happening inside my head. I'm definitely speaking about this in hindsight. So I'm telling a story of sorts. It's not necessarily like a documentary about what really happened. But I think there was this feeling like, how come I don't get to have that? Why do those people get to have this thing and I don't? So I went back. to the states after this experience and at the time I was living in Texas.

And from then on, there was just this drive to get there, to experience that feeling of being on the inside, in the clique-ish, inside the clique, you know? To be part of the cool kids club. I wanted that because, you know, I didn't get to be that in high school. I was a nerd. I came from Russia. When I was a teenager, I was super awkward.

I didn't get to be the it girl. And I was a nerd. And when I got into tango, all of these feelings kind of bubbled up unresolved. And even though I was nearing 30s, I still was very much of that kind traumatized immigrant teenager who was trying to figure out how to have friends and how to have self-value and all of that. A few years later, after my first time, so, you know, I was already a pretty advanced dancer at this point, and I get to go back to Pornositis. And I love, I love, love when things like this happen.

And for me, I've been very lucky that things like this have been happening a lot in tango. My tango journey has had a lot of twists and turns, and many of them have been magical. And this is one of those magical twists. That is, the second time I go to Buenos Aires, the very first night that I go to Malanga this time, without me knowing it, without me planning it, we end up at the same exact venue as the few years prior, and we get sat down at the same table that I was watching. So the table of people that I was watching, you know, in the room a few years ago.

This time around, I was part of a group that sat at that table. And in my group was Murat Erdemsel, who is one of the best dancers out there, dear friend, who I met on this trip. And he just happened to be in this group of people. So I got to know him, and I got to dance with him. And for me, as still sort of a newbie, You know, not so beginner, but still very new to the culture. And of course I have my Tango idols and I'm all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. And it was a big deal.

Here I was actually being part of this in-crowd. And it was very validating. I got to be like part of the cool kids at this table. And I was the one sitting there and laughing with people and having a great time. So that was cool. I got to have that.

You know, and since then, I've had that throughout my years in different situations where I've ended up as part of a certain pocket of people. But I've also had the same amount, if not more, experiences of again being on the outside of the clique. Because you're never part of all cliques, you know? It actually is the case that... the way communities work, there's always gonna be little pockets of people, little groups forming, and they become their own little clique.

And that clique could be a few people, or it could be, you know, maybe eight, 10 people. But it's not gonna be more than that. If it's anything more... I think there will be a splintering and there will be another little click. Little clicks, they just sort of form because that's what we naturally do. We sort of attach to different people. So if you happen to feel that you're kind of like outside of a particular click, that's just the case for everyone.

Everybody has this perspective that you're outside of a certain click. And when it comes to marathons... Sometimes you'll go to an event and you'll feel that you become part of the click due to where you're being sat or who sits next to you or somebody randomly invites you to a table and suddenly you're part of the click and other times you'll experience something completely different. That is going to be the case always and I think to really admit that at any marathon that you go to because of its size. because marathons are really large events at this point, a few hundred people, if not more, there's always going to be clicks.

And the larger the marathon, the more clicks are gonna happen, and the less people are gonna dance with new people. This is the trend that I've noticed, that you might have a really amazing event that's being publicized, and it's like 3,000 people, 2,000 people. And when you go there, you end up not really connecting with anyone and not really dancing a lot with strangers because it's just too big.

So the trend since we've come back from COVID has been to have more and more of these marathon events that are these big, intense three to four day events that are saturated with lots of dancers and we want more and more and more. We want more live music, more DJs, more hours. And I think that we're all kind of getting fatigued, especially when you've done it for a few years.

You kinda start getting fatigued with the demand of that, with the energy that it requires, the financial investment, the time away. And then for me, I've noticed going and sacrificing my sleep and messing up my diet and really pushing my body to the edge only to come back and have to rebounce or have to rebound really quickly and get back on my schedule of living my life. It's actually so much work and you think that you're going away to a vacation to have this magical time but it ends up being this endurance quest. and it's really stressful, and then sometimes you don't really get what you want, and there's a lot less return for the investment of all the energy.

So there's been some attempts to change the culture of marathons, to introduce different initiatives to entice people to be more generous with their dancing, to dance with strangers, to create opportunities for people to connect outside of the dance floor, maybe like a mixer, or just to say like the next Honda. everybody switch every song.

So those kinds of things have been taking place to kind of get people to break out of their zone. And I think those are worthwhile, even though I'm the first person could be like, I don't like it. I don't wanna switch when I'm told to switch. I only wanna switch when I wanna switch. My badger, my badger self. So those things. You know, are important. And I think organizers of bigger events also try to perhaps instill a culture of a certain kind and promote attitudes of friendliness and openness and encouraging people to mix, mix and connect.

And all of that is happening. And I see the hard work, the intention, the care that organizers put into this effort. And a lot of it is unnoticed and not recognized. So if you are an organizer in any capacity, just know that I have absolute respect and gratitude for the work that all event organizers do to put on these events, because it's an insane amount of commitment. So that's all true. However... I'm thinking once again of this conversation I had with Oliver Kalker a few weeks ago, where he said that tango is just different than any other dance in terms of comparing it to something like salsa or swing. Tango does not work the same way. Any salsa, big salsa event can be up to 5,000 people.

And I think Tango taps out at 2,000. This is once again, something I got from Oliver who has been around and sort of was telling me his perspective. And I started thinking about it because one of the reasons why I wanted to start a podcast and one of my overall goals is to... sort of show and demystify tango to more people so that people who are meant to be tango dancers feel welcome and feel that tango is accessible to them.

So I want to sort of lift the curtain on what tango is really and so that there's more dancers coming in. So there's part of me like, oh yes, we need to work harder to make these events bigger because the goal. eventually is to have so many dancers at these events that there's 5,000 dancers. You know, that's when we know that tango is really going to make it.

That tango is a real deal. Tango counts. Um, you know, Oliver said, nobody cares about tango because there's just not that many people dancing at it. Doesn't make up a big enough proportion of the market to be significant in any way. So I was thinking about that, you know, I agree. It's true. But there was this insight that I realized that, no, Tenga does not work on a big scale. And therefore we actually are experiencing the reality of what happens on a large scale. When the tango event gets too big, when there's too many bells and whistles, the level is too high, there's too many great dancers in the same room, it actually serves to do the opposite from what we want. It doesn't bring people together.

It makes things more distant. It makes things sort of emulate perfection more, but there's not as much of that intimacy and that subtle intensity that develops in tango that we want to feel, that we're after, that other dances don't necessarily foster. Tango is the dance that facilitates that kind of intimacy. That's what we want. And we're actually getting less of that the bigger the event gets. And I think that's really what we're seeing is that, yeah, it's all cool to have a great event that has lots of people and it's fun to go to that. sometimes, you know, throughout the year, and experience that rush and that endurance feet of dancing so much.

But at the same time, it actually doesn't perhaps give us what we're really after anymore. And my argument, my point of view here is I think we shouldn't expect marathons to provide that anymore. I don't think that's what marathons are good at. I don't think that's what the purpose of a marathon is anymore. If we want marathons to foster that kind of intimacy, if I were talking to an organizer who asked me my opinion about what would it take for a marathon to have that quality that we're after. I would say that it needs to be going smaller.

It needs to be a smaller, more intimate event that emphasizes the opportunity for people to connect off the dance floor in a more casual way. Basically think house party style. Honestly, of all the events, that I've ever attended. And I'm gonna count marathons, festivals, anything in Buenos Aires, anything in any other country, of all the big events that I've attended, of all the magic that I experienced at these incredible, huge events, it doesn't really match the incredible magic I've experienced at some house parties. And one of them, I remember, happened on my last trip to Buenos Aires. And it happened really early on in my visit there.

I was actually supposed to be in Buenos Aires for like two months. And I ended up leaving after five weeks. Part of it was because I was done. I got what I came for. And it was interesting because I found it on a dance floor in somebody's living room, where one day I ended up at this little party. And there was maybe 10 people there. And there was a... person who was a bandanon player who was this incredible master on the bandanon and he was playing tangos, tango music.

And this incredibly talented dancer who was there all of a sudden just pulled me on the dance floor and we ended up dancing this tango while everybody watched, you know, and I'm like dancing with this amazing person in the middle of the dance floor while live music is playing. afterward it was so it was so magical it was such an incredibly intense moment where it was like I witnessed something about tango something very pure.

And it's not a good word for this for what I'm talking about because it suggests that something can be also impure but it's more like the essence of tango this very this very this more folk, almost a folk nature of it, feeling how tango came from this more, from the tradition of people sitting together, making music together in a group, that it's not that there's this dance called tango and music called tango and the melonga and a practica and like all of it is like these departments that tango later fostered.

It was this feeling like, oh, this is how it started. This is how it started, a moment of feeling where somebody's singing a song and you feel it so intensely that you must do something and you dance to it. And for a moment, there's this witnessing of something together.

And I remember after the song ended and we were done and we were leaving, there was a Milan ghetto who came up to me and he, I'll never forget the expression on his face. his eyes. He looked at me and he just said thank you over and over again. You know he just was like so moved and I didn't know, I don't know what he saw.

I wasn't like trying to do anything specific. I was just so caught up in the moment of this group, of this energy. And this is one of the most incredible moments in my life I think. I believe at that moment I fulfilled. all of my dreams of performance, I think. After that, I was like, I don't really care if I ever perform because this was my big performance of my lifetime in a way. So House Party energy for me has always fostered more of those interesting experiences with people.

And this is kind of what I realize now what I experienced last year. in that contrast, that yes, there's this big event, this amazing marathon that has all these dancers and there's all this beauty and opulence. But in the end, as a social dancer, now being of however many years of whatever level I am, I don't know, advanced beginner, being as a social dancer now in my trajectory, it's much more interesting for me to experience more intimacy rather than scale.

So I find that a lot of people are talking about this desire that instead of going to big events, like marathons and festivals, instead just going to that community and dancing locally and timing your visit so that you get to attend multiple events, like multiple milongas several days in a row.

And When we're thinking about this evolution that takes place over long periods of time, so the Marathon model came as a response to having an alternative to a festival model.

Now there's this new demand, I think, that once again, I see Alex Krebs and organizers like him take on the role of innovating and creating an alternative to marathons. Instead of having one big event that one person or a team of people put together, have multiple organizers come together and schedule events throughout the year where there will be a cluster of malongas several days in a row, and then invite out of towners to come dance. And that's been happening more and more.

I've noticed It's a natural evolution of things. I've noticed without it even being an organized thing, there are dancers in other communities who are doing that. They're just looking at their calendar and saying, oh, I'm gonna go to such and such city for a couple of days and dance at these events. And I think this is a really...

I think this is a really worthwhile model to explore and pursue, both as organizers because it's less work and you already have things in place for it to happen, but also for dancers who are looking to experience more intimacy. And if you've had this feeling of like, oh, I'm going to these marathons and there's all this clickishness and I'm not part of the click or whatever, then think about just.

What you want is maybe to go to a different community where you will be exposed to a few new dancers, but not like a ton of new dancers. Maybe, you know, I kind of think about like, how can you be a big fish in a small pond? You know, sometimes that's as, that's that simple. Kind of think about where can you go where you can experience that? If you find that... You're kind of like not fitting into these more hip crowds.

And there's a lot of people who are kind of like not paying attention to you. Look for other communities where you can plug into your own bubble. So it's not that you don't belong in a particular click. It's just that you belong in a specific click to you. You don't need to be part of a click. That's not really where you. accepted and at ease and you have to jump through hoops. You just need to find people in your own tribe, right?

That's kind of like how you make it through high school, and that's basically how you make it through social tango as well. So I am all in favor these days of thinking of these small weekend getaways where as dancers we go on an exploration mission of a certain community. This is kind of what I've been fantasizing about that for so many years I've been going and the only thing I know about a tango community is this particular event that I attend. B

ut a lot of dancers don't go to those events and you might not actually get a sense of what the community is really like. So my desire is to actually just go on a random week and go to some local events and really get a sense of what that community is like and look for that opportunity for magic to happen with new people without that pressure of a big event where like I spent all this money and I'm not getting the dances that I want. So. That's been my sort of daydreaming, and I'm curious what it's like for you, how you feel about marathons. Do you like going to marathons?

Do you get a lot out of it? For some people, it's still very much an enjoyable experience, and they get to really have a lot of fun. And if it's not your cup of tea anymore, you know, share, perhaps you wanna share some of the frustrations you've had, or maybe you found your own personal solution. to this issue, make sure you share that.

You can join the Facebook group once again and join my live banter on Friday this week. We'll be talking about this more within that conversation. Now. As we wrap up, I want to go back to something once again that Oliver said in our interview a couple of weeks ago. And he really emphasized that tango is not socialist, that tango is a capitalist institution. And what he was basically saying is that ultimately we cannot make tango dancers do anything for the greater good of the community is kind of true.

This is why all of the attempts that organizers have made in terms of changing the culture of tango, I think yes, there's been some improvement and some people do put forth the effort to make the community more inclusive.

But overall, tango dancers are selfish and we are going to continue to go after what we want to satisfy ourselves. And in that way, I do agree that you ultimately, long term, can't rely on tango dancers gradually coming to this place where we're gonna make decisions that are decisions that don't come from a selfish place when it comes to tango.

And the way Oliver described the concept of capitalism in terms of the tango dance floor is he said, free exchange of value. I thought that was really interesting because I started asking, well, what is it this, what is the value that we are exchanging on the dance floor?

And what is the value that I as a dancer bring to the other person? What do I consider to be things about my dance that are worthy of exchange? And what do I actually want? an exchange back, right? So these questions are going to be my banter next week.

So I hope you join me next episode to explore these little I hope you join me for another little banter next week. Until then, have a wonderful week ahead. Thanks for joining me and we'll chat with you soon. Ciao. So this is what we're going to tackle next week on the Tango Banter. I hope you decide to join me.

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